Quiner’s Diner debates liberal Catholic – PART 2

By Tom Quiner

[The debate continues. Click here to review PART 1] …

QD: Perhaps we should start here, LC: do you stand with our Church? Do you oppose human abortion, which our Church states is a non-negotiable position and an intrinsic evil? Even more, do you oppose candidates who support pro abortion laws? Do you oppose so-called gay marriage, which our Church says puts souls at grave risk? Do you?

LC: Lets rewind. Will you support someone whose faith believes your Pope, whom you pray for every Sunday, is the anti-christ? Yes I am 100 percent anti-abortion.

Beware “straw man” arguments!


This is commonly called a “straw man” argument, which is an informal fallacy designed to distort an opponent’s position and change the subject.

LC: I believe gays and conservatives are loved by God. Jesus told us not to judge, I won’t. Being pro birth is great , being pro life means providing for the less fortunate after they are NOT aborted. The right wing sometimes believes poor people are poor by choice. Most need a safety net- maybe throughout their life.

LC: I have never heard of anyone being pro abortion. The freedom to make choices are what makes America great. Not all choices do I agree with, but as an American. I don’t want to restrict that choice, no matter how heinous I believe it is. You could do your good work by making sure your family will choose life. As a Catholic, I believe it is wrong. As an American, I believe my and yours or anyone’s morality should not be legislated.

LC: I have never typed so much.

At this point, the candidate, Vicki Stogdill, jumped into the conversation …

STOGDILL: My opponent voted to use taxpayer funds for abortions, and voted to allow abortions for any reason (including the most common, for birth control) up to and including the 9th month. HF657 3/31/11. In contrast, I believe that only God creates life and it is sacred from the moment of conception. No, not even a rapist can “create” life … only God does that for His divine purpose. I have five members of my family that have been adopted – one was the product of a rape. Yes I am 100% pro life. To say “freedom to make choices” is what makes America great could apply to many actions we would find repugnant. The vast majority (99.9%) of abortions are performed to kill a life that was the result of a lifestyle choice.

QD: Every piece of legislation involves a moral judgement. Our Church says human life begins at conception. Your acceptance of so-called choice sanctions the killing of a human being. Our country was founded on the idea that each of us has a God-given right to Life. Our Church concurs. That’s why we pass laws, to make moral judgements on what is right and what is wrong. We are called to give a voice to the voiceless by supporting pro life candidates, to spread peace and justice to the most vulnerable amongst us. That is what is so beautiful about the Catholic faith, our reverence for the dignity of human life and our passion to stand up publicly in its defense.

LC: Again we both believe that abortions are something we would would never go through. Great for us. But for others, I choose not to place my beliefs in front of their options. Since you [Stogdill] are on here, and we are discussing our core beliefs, and our conversation started with this: what religion do you belong to?

STOGDILL: Regarding the so-called “social justice” movement, many churches teach an incorrect theology to justify more government control and growth. Show me anywhere in Holy Scripture where it says Caesar should care for the widow and orphan. (You won’t find it, no, not even when Joseph opened the grain storage, it was “sold”, not given). Scripture is quite clear — WE believers, the church – are to care for them. Our culture has become so entrenched in feeling like we are “doing our part” to help the needy by simply paying our taxes – that many no longer feel they should tithe or help in much of a charitable fashion at all – the “I gave at the office” mentality. This robs them of their blessing for being obedient to our command to help the needy – and teaches the needy to look to the government instead of looking to the church (and continues the spiraling growth of more government). Not to mention the dependence it breeds … and ruins families. Having said all that, I would not recommend our government stop aiding the poor, except to root out verifiable fraud which is rampant. We must also ensure that our government does not go beyond that which is “help” and becomes that which is “expected” or a becomes a “right” not to work or be productive.

LC: …and your religion?

STOGDILL [quoting Genesis]: “When the famine had spread over the whole country, Joseph opened all the storehouses and sold grain to the Egyptians, for the famine was severe throughout Egypt.”

LC: …real easy. What is your religion?

STOGDILL: I am Missouri-Synod Lutheran.

QD: LC, our Church calls us to so much more. In “Living the Gospel of Life,” the U.S. bishops were clear that “we must therefore explain, persuade, correct and admonish those in leadership positions who contradict the Gospel of life through their actions and policies.” My friend, the stakes are high, because human life is at stake. If we can’t vote against candidates who want to take our money to spend on human abortion, who can we vote against? Vicki stands up for Life in staunch support of Catholic principle. In light of the stark contrast between her positions and her opponent’s, she has my vote.

[Check back shortly for the final conflagration when Quiner’s Diner debates a liberal Catholic.]


  1. lburleso on September 27, 2012 at 10:43 am

    Nowhere in the USCCB’s document “Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship” (http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf) does it mention that we should vote based on a candidate’s religion, or what he/she thinks about the Pope.

    It all comes down to their morals, values, and how they use those to represent their constituents. Those are put on a ranked scale and weighed out across all candidates.

    Whichever candidate comes out ahead in the non-negotiable issues receives our vote.

    In the case of a tie, we then weigh out issues of prudential judgement.

    It’s so simple!

    • quinersdiner on September 27, 2012 at 10:50 am

      Excellent clarification.

  2. Bob Zimmerman on September 27, 2012 at 10:50 am

    LC… I have a daughter and a wife. I love them both very much. I would never kill either of them. That would go against my principles. But if someone else felt the need to kill them, who am I to say they shouldn’t? It’s a free country, after all! LC, is any of this getting through?

    • quinersdiner on September 27, 2012 at 10:58 am

      Your example clarifies the debate even more. Thanks, Bob.

  3. Shawn Pavlik on September 27, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    LC says “Again we both believe that abortions are something we would would never go through. Great for us. But for others, I choose not to place my beliefs in front of their options.”

    It reminds me of Sir Edmund Burke’s famous quote “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”

    IMHO, there is no greater evil in our time, save perhaps terrorism, than the evil of abortion. In America alone, since 1972, over 50 million have perished in the name of “convenience”.