1. Bob Vance on March 4, 2013 at 9:04 am

    Regarding your quote: “If there were no God, there would be no atheists.” From a logical standpoint, it fails. Atheism – having no belief in a god or gods.

    We are all born atheists – having no belief in God, as associated with the Bible. We learn of God through our parents and peers. Throughout history, many people lived and died without ever knowing a Biblical God.

    We are all atheists when it comes to other Gods. Even you, Mr. Quiner, are an atheist when it comes to Thor or Zeus or Mithra.

    • Bob Vance on March 4, 2013 at 9:08 am

      A little trivia you are welcome to offer rebuttal:

      The most Christian U.S.President based on church attendance, references to Jesus, and references to praying for guidance….

      Bill Clinton

      • quinersdiner on March 4, 2013 at 9:18 am

        Christ came into the world to save sinners. Mr. Clinton, obviously recognizes that.

      • Karen Quiner on March 4, 2013 at 10:01 am

        Doesn’t surprise me a bit about Bill Clinton. We can’t ever judge another human being and know for sure, but I always had the feeling it was genuine. He is a sinner, a cracked pot, just like the rest of us. Those of us who know we are sinners know how much we need God, and that knowledge doesn’t make us perfect, but hopefully makes us continue to strive.

    • quinersdiner on March 4, 2013 at 9:16 am

      I’m a Christian for a multitude of reasons. One is that my reasoning determined that the evidence in favor of Christianity is overwhelming. I don’t have the faith of an atheist, which requires a belief that matter was created from nothing by nothing, and even more, somehow organized itself intelligently to the point that reasoning beings were created. I don’t have enough faith to believe in intelligent design without an intelligent designer. I’ve tried, but I just can’t make it work.

      • Bob Vance on March 4, 2013 at 10:11 am

        I was waiting for the news to come on, and I caught the last of a religious show one early Sunday morning. The pastor was answering questions sent in. One of the questions was regarding the recent discovery that dead space may not be as dead as we always assumed. They found cells of what was thought to be dead space that spontaneously created energy. Putting aside what was probably the greatest find in these scientists’ life-long careers, what I found interesting was the answer given. “When I read nonsense like this, I just laugh and walk away.” To me, that is pure arrogance. Jerry Falwell said, “A good Christian, like a good soldier, asks no questions”, which translates to “ignorance is bliss.”

        The basis of Intelligent Design is that “life is so complex; I can’t comprehend how we could have gotten here so there must be a creator”. In the scientific world, this does not hold up for various reasons. With the recent breakthroughs in genetics and mapping our DNA, we can see how everything builds on something else – from simple to complex. Even something as complex as a human eye has been shown to have evolved from light sensitive cells (as exist in creatures today) in a relatively short time (relative to the age of the earth). Everything we find in genetics today falls within the model of evolution.

        I could go on and on, but I doubt it would really matter to you and that is your choice so I will finish with this. We would not be where we are today if not for science and the scientific method. No faith is required.

    • Karen Quiner on March 4, 2013 at 10:12 am

      I have addressed this with you before Bob, but I believe you are dead wrong on this. Children are naturally spiritual beings. They often times see God, talk to Him, or to angels and saints. A belief in God certainly is something that is nurtured, but is not created by the parents.

      In every age down through history, people have been attracted to God because the desire for Him is implanted in our inner being.

      Just because people don’t know a Biblical God doesn’t make them atheists. If you believe in any God, you are not an atheist.

      I believe in God because of reason AND faith.

      Speaking of the old argument of Reason VS. Faith, here is what my good friend G.K. Chesterton has to say on the subject.

      “It is idle to talks always of the alternative of reason and faith. Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all. If you are merely a sceptic, you must sooner or later ask yourself the question, “Why should anything go right; even observation and deduction? Why should not good logic be as misleading as bad logic? They are both movements in the brain of a bewildered ape?” The young sceptic says, “I have a right to think for myself.” But the old sceptic, the complete sceptic, says, “I have no right to think for myself. I have no right to think at all.”” (G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy, 2006 Relevant Media Group, p. 23)

      Chesterton is a wonderful read. And there is a current author who has written two fabulous books I have recently read. Dale Ahlquist. Check out Common Sense 101, and the Complete Thinker, both by Dale Ahlquist. Both are about the teachings of Chesterton. You will be entertained Bob, I PROMISE you.

      • Bob Vance on March 4, 2013 at 2:41 pm

        I will read them.

  2. Bob Vance on March 4, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    I find it interesting that you tend to put alot into philosophers from the past. I tend to go with scientists now. I see it as your bringing a knife to a gun fight, but I am sure you see it differently 🙂

    The reason for the delay in my response is an old friend dropped in from out of state and he took me out for lunch. He and I have debated religion and politics for over thirty years, and we still remain the best of friends.

    Back to my original comment. I know several people who were not brought up in a religious environment. They have no religious beliefs today. I have no doubt if they would have been placed in a Muslim or Christian home they would have ended up Muslim or Christian. Likewise, if a Christian baby were raised by atheists, they would tend to be atheists today.

    Many atheists today were raised in a religious home, but choose through study to be atheists, not because they were angry at God, which seems to be a common view among the religious nor are they devil worshipers which is any even bigger stretch. Most people in the U.S. don’t even know the Ten Commandments, yet they claim to be Christians. Few have even read the Bible. They did a recent survey, where they tested people on their knowledge of the Bible. Atheists scored highest, with Catholics a close second. Perhaps it is because atheists tend to be higher educated.

    From a moral standpoint, when asked, atheists tend to give to charity at the same rates as theists. Recent trends have shown they are more charitable because they are getting more organized. Catholics, for instance, already have the infrastructure to generate donations. Based on the percentage of atheists in the general population, there is a much lower percentage of atheists in prison.

    I am not against religious people. I think religion does a lot of good for a lot of people. I don’t see the need for those religious to talk down to me or imply I have no morals just because I chose not to believe in what I call “supernatural”.

    Here is my theory and it does not rely on anything supernatural:
    Jesus was arrested, flogged, and crucified. Most people hang on for days before dying. Jesus was taken down in just a few hours. Who’s to say he was actually dead? Assuming he really wasn’t dead, he meets with his close followers, gives them instructions, and leaves town.

    IF the above scenario were found to be true, would it take away from what Jesus taught? Would you immediately claim that there are no morals and run out and start killing people? I don’t think you would. “Morals” were around long before the Bible and exists regardless of the Bible.